Ruger No1 in 303, pt. 3 Slugging The Bore
Ruger No1 in 303, pt. 3 Slugging The Bore
Time to see what this bore actually measures.
The Cinnibar, How To SLug A Rifle Bore: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBhXV0_shc0
source
Reviews
0 %
You need real soft jacketed bullets. I have some .311 supersoft 180 gr yellow color I call them bananna bullets they are intended to flatten out easily.
So a couple of things here I want address. As a fan boy of single shot rifles I have to point out one inherent issue with the Ruger #1. That issue is the harmonics of the barrel due to the way the fore end are attached. In fact the are a handful of gunsmiths who specialize in correcting this issue. Next bore to bullet diameter issues is nothing new to the 303 British in general. For those of us old-timers of the hand loading world have dealt with for years. Now many have went with casting there own bullets. It works for targets, but shorts it in hunting effectiveness. The other solution we discovered is far more simple, yet hard for me to make people understand in my poor ability of clearly written word. But if you wish I will try my best to come back and elaborate, or do a video of my own addressing the subject.
Mountain man
Sounds like it's time to look in there with a bore scope!
Tom has taught me a lot on his channel and answered a lot of questions I had wondered about I love his channel for these reasons.
That's quite a bit of work to get that rifle to shoot well when I know you have other rifles that will do the same trick with less hassle. It must have sentimental value to you.
Maybe more fouling will make up the difference
Tom,
Ruger wants to sell their rifles in European (GB included) countries too, where their barrels have to undergo official proof by a proofhouse. So their barrels have to conform to CIP minimum dimensions for .303 British barrels.
The CIP dimensions are: minimum bore 7.70mm = .303", minimum groove 7.98mm = .314". If a .303 British marked and chambered barrel, even a custom one, does not meet these minimum diameters it will be rejected by the proofhouse, be it Liege, Suhl, Ferlach or London, and be sent back to the maker.
BTW, the maximum bullet diameter is 7.92mm = .312".
This loose fit, by todays standards, between minimum groove and maximum bullet diameter is a common problem not only with the .303, but with many others of the early smokeless miltary cartridges, f.i. the 6.5x53R Mannlicher, 6.5×54 M-Sch. At the time the dimensions were set, bullets were long and heavy with thin jackets, smokeless rifle powders were relatively fast burning. To keep pressures at bay, cartridge/ barrel designers often depended on the long, round nose bullets to slug up on firing.
My own number 1 in 303 British that I’ve had and have hunted with since it was first released in 2010, is load sensitive.
The best accuracy was with a Woodleigh 215 grain RNSP bullet (.312”) propelled by a max charge of Varget powder. This bullet uses a soft copper jacket and bonded soft lead core which “bumps up” on firing.
My standard hunting load for this rifle uses the Hornady 174 grain RNSP propelled to 2400 fps using Varget powder.
When you slugged your barrel and you had a tight spot, That is the culprit! You can't have a spot that shrinks the bullet and then opens up while the bullet is supposed to be guided till it leaves the crown. That's why it is so detrimental to screw up the crown, the last thing to touch the bullet before it's on it's own. In your case the bullet is loose in the barrel from the tight spot till the end. Essentially the tight spot is the end, the crown, of the barrel and the rest of the barrel is there to screw up the accuracy. The bullet probably isn't going to obturate any more, that far down the barrel. I'm surprised it's not keyholing. Just my thoughts and I'm nobody.
Your detective work explains SOME of the problems you are experiencing, but No. 1's are notorious for being difficult to make accurate because of the forend hanger design.
Been my experience that my personal guns including my #1 in 300 win mag shoot better with a leaded barrel , the groups improve after running 20 or more rounds . I appreciate your patience with the one your working with ! its a beauty , hopefully you can get a round under 2 inches at a 100 and enjoy hunting with it !
Sounds like you need to get casting for this rifle Tom 😉
Come to the dark side 😀
9:20 Using Mitus, you will be fine 😀
back in the day Ruger farmed out their barrel production and had really inconsistent barrels, some rifles would not shoot no matter what you did
Why did the lead slug get tight in the bore when it got down to where the sling stud was clamped around the barrel is it possible that that clamp is causing enough pressure to deform the inside dimension of the bore?
Whatever the problems are with Ruger barrels (real, but usually adequate for fun & hunting), the Number 1 can have challenges with forend/hanger/ barrel contact/ other. You are judging this No. 1 Ruger with other rifles shooting for small group. Like bolt actions. Even among bolt actions there can be wide variation in group consistency. You picked one of the toughest model guns to assume it can shoot small groups with even hand loads. You’re beyond your level of knowledge and expectations. Slugging the bore/ rifling will do nothing to improve group size. It will only give you one indication of barrel. Nothing changes, nothing improves. Take it to a licensed (FFL 01) professional full time Gunsmith and pay him to rebarrel the No.1 with a good quality barrel, machined, fit & installed correctly and then pay him or her to resolve the No.1 forearm issue. No barrel flutes, no fancy stuff on muzzle end, no exotic nothing. Just a properly machined, chambered, fit & installed quality barrel. Also pay Gunsmith to make a scope base that extends back over the receiver for proper scope mounting. The new barrel & forend are the key. Stop playing around trying to get that factory stock No.1 a bench rest rifle. You won’t with that particular barrel on it . If you have a factory No.1 .303 that is tack driver; good for you. But this barrel obviously throws them. Pay Gunsmith to rebarrel it . Advice from Gunsmith.
I have to admit, you have more patience than me. I think I would be moving on
Tom, since you are reloading as is try shooting hard cast lead bullets. I have been shooting bullets from Montana Bullet Works, they have a 195G .303 British custom sized .313, .314, .315. they are coated and have a copper gas check. Perhaps not a perfect hunting round but shooting a handful at the range could answer some questions. I can't recommend load data but Monta Bullet supply might help. I am shooting lightweight .303 in a SKS that has a .313 bore, the larger dia, does help accuracy.
No if you want accuracy that Ruger barrel is knackered ,and 303 does have 311 grouve depth and 303 bore . Medford rifling was rounded on the edges , Enfield rifling has squared off edges . Down here in Australia the no1 rugger is expensive but notorious bad grouper . You could get a correct sized bore barrel and have a good shooter or get a custom gass checked bullet mould made and shoot over sized projectiles .
Hello Tom. Great video as usual. I have a question. Last week you mentioned the rifle barrel expands outward when it heats up. If your scope mounts are attached to the barrel will it change your scope settings due to the barrel expanding? It seems to me that would possibly raise the scope cross hairs as the barrel expands.
Look like a Wallhanger to me, buy a different cal. 😊
You're welcome Sir! Glad I could help.
When I loaded .303, I used RL15. Being a double base, as is cordite, I got wonderful accuracy from my No4Mk2 with .311 and .312 bullets. I duplicated the old Mk7 load velocity of 2440 fps
For " Emmagees" ( machine guns) the Brits used the Mk7Z load which was single base to avoid the extreme erosion found with cordite. The Mk7 bullet was an open based fmj which also helped obdurate the bullet.
Interesting but I don’t know about all this. Your 303 shot significantly better on the lead sled. Also Ruger #1s are famous for vertical stringing from the hanger/fore-end setup. I’d focus on holding that rifle when you shoot it, either down on the scope or actually hold onto it like when you shoot offhand. Or just use the sled although I know you think it might somehow cause some damage. This and float the rifle fore-end which has been required on all 3 of the #1s I’ve owned. Just seems like those fundamentals aren’t in place yet.
This is so, so interesting. Best place to get the low down truth. Thank you! Superb!
1885 Winchester all day #1's are very finicky..
Been looking forward to this episode. Ruger No. 1 is my favorite rifle and I am excited to see it get worked out!
Tom you’ve shown more fortitude than I could muster attempting to correct a gun ready to drop off the nearest cliff lol
the tight spot at the barrel band sounds to be the problem ,as improbable as it sounds maybe try removing it and re sl;ug ,the tube must have been consistent before the band was fitted ,also with enfields theres a lot of chamber length variation ,may be not with the ruger but i would do a chamber cast to see if chamber meets rifling ,i realise your after factory type ammo ,bein a tight ass ozzi a lot of us load hard cast ww using gas checks ,only using 4198 or the ADi equivalent not really pushing above about 2200fps sized to ,314 .315, the larger lead seems to keep the fps up using the slower powder i have a lee die,314 drops about ,315 my enfields all vary on the chamber throat length ,shells are kept for each seperate rifle
is that tight spot going to cause irregular pressures?
I don't think bullet obturation really works as well with smokeless powder as black powder. For one in black powder they were using lead not copper jackets. And black powder is a explosive smokeless is a propellant. You won't get the same hard knock for obturation. I really don't think you're ever going to see great accuracy out of that barrel until you lapp it and find the correct bullet diameter for it. If it were me I think I'd either cast bullets and paper patch them or make a swagging die to take a .323 dia. Bullet down to .317 but going more than .006 in sizing is not very good for a jacketed bullet. The easiest thing would be to re barrel it for .312 bullets or sell it. And get one in 30.06 or 7×57. IMHO
Thanks Tom, interesting as always!
I have a question for you . If gas is escaping around the bullet, shouldn’t that lead to heavy copper fouling? A look through the bore scope would be interesting.
What if you use a faster powder to create more initial pressure?
It would be interesting to see what heavy cast bullets might do regards accuracy. IMR 4895 and cast lead bullets works accurately for my .303. Maybe, just maybe the barrel needs a good barrel doctor's assessment as to what might work best.
I remember seeing information about a chelian mauser i have, apparently back then, in Europe they had a different way of measuring their rifles. I don't remember exactly but it's different than today.
That rifle needs to go back to Ruger for a replacement barrel. That level of innaccuracy is unacceptable for a rifle that costs as much as those #1's do. That rifle should shoot at least 1 inch groups at 100 yards all day with quality ammo.
To cause the bullet to expand out into the rifling 'properly', I've been convinced a faster powder is better.
According to the SIERRA loading manual, IMR 3031, H4895 and a couple other current powders are faster burning (based on the maximum velocities verses the powder charge). That sounds reasonable to address the problem of filling the barrel.
I would have to endorse zipp6808's suggestion of examining the constriction point. If the bullet is constricted at any point, it will NOT expand to fit the grooves.
I have a .303 British chambered Ruger No 1. Initial trials indicated IMR 4350 (which is a relatively slow powder) gave rather consistent velocities. This was using the 174 grain Hornady 3130 type bullet.
I'll have to shoot that rifle a bit more – I've been working on other stuff – and see if I get results worthy of mention.
I will add I like your channel, finding it quite illuminating and reasonable. Very few seem to show actual information.
If the bore is constricted part way down it, wouldn't that create a potential for poor accuracy as the bullet is gets compressed
smaller than the rest of the bore?
Interesting, I have a 1955 No. 4 Mk2, obviously post war. I purchased it unfired… I load Hornady 0.312" 174Gr Match, or Sierra MatchKings also 174Gr.
I use BL(C)2, which IIRC was the powder used in the Mk7 loadings. I use 43 grains, for about 2500fps, very close to the service load. YMMV.
Velocities over the chrono were very much identical, maybe +/-12fps.
With the original irons, and using a Lead Sled, I can easily achieve 1.5" groups at 100 yds. You may want to give BL(C)2 a try.
Now I must slug my barrel, there's no need, I'm just curious! Nice, thorough investigation. Thanks!
P.S. For the Ruger, try cast 220 grain lead? That will obturate easily, and the velocities should reduce chance of leading.
Your rifle is .3145 at the tightest point. Probably under the sling swivel. The rest is .315 or .315+. Hawk bullets makes a 150 grain .316 diameter bullet. Problem there is once any bullet passes your swing swivel it is going to be .3145. Fire lap that barrel and get rid of the tight spot. Then use the Hawk .316. If you decide to do this you better check your chamber throat diameter to insure it can release a .316 with factory brass.
So at this point you will probably have to either use oversized lead bullets or get a new barrel or rifle..correct?
I would have been curious about the diameter of the Parker Hale Sporter. How did it work out after correcting the scope mount?
I’ve got an old 1917 Enfield in .30-06 that gives good accuracy with .303 / .311 flat base bullets, and it slugs .311 dia. My Lee Enfield No1 Mk3 will also shoot inside 3 inches with the same bullets, and its military iron sights—good enough for all practical purposes!
I don't know much about No. 1s, but it would be hard to believe the sling attachment band could be tightened enough to constrict the barrel. Tom, you've probably already thought of this, but I would think it more likely some kind of anomaly (pitting, copper buildup, rifling gouged up in the process of cutting, etc.) would cause the tightness you experienced. And that maybe you should scope the bore (I'd be surprised if you haven't already done this).
I have a Ruger No. 1 in 375 H&H. Beautiful rifle but crazy making. Once I found a load that was reasonably accurate and within acceptable velocity range I just stopped. The Ruger No. 1 will break your heart.
Awesome video! I really learned quite a bit.
early 30 cal rugers had a 311 Grove diameter most inaccurate rifles I had the Displeasure of owning
Some of the early cordite loads have a sealed overpowder wad,was this to help obturate the projectile.